it's an extraordinary amount. what's also, i think, interesting, maria, when he started to issue those bonds, there were already cracks starting to appear, and yet a lot of very sophisticated investors were still willing to buy those bonds that were unsecured. >> you know, at the end of the day, it really was the fact that he just overestimated how much oil there would be in the ground. >> for sure. >> but there's also the issue of leverage. and the issue of debt. how much of that did this play -- did that play into it? >> oh, a lot. remember, there wasn't just financial leverage. there was, what you might call, business leverage because you have the shipping company sdpentd ent on the oil company and the port company dependent on the oil company. all of these companies have debt on top of it. business leverage, synergy, some call it conflict of interest. financial leverage on top of it, then you have a recipe for disaster. >>, yeah it's a really extraordinary story. know he has not been talking. we've called him several times. at some point, you know, investors want to hear from him.